tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3269306468607044272.post5486360791963762233..comments2023-09-08T23:03:38.173-07:00Comments on Speculative Nonfiction: How Would You Prove That We ARE in a Simulation?Michael Catonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01017910055699348111noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3269306468607044272.post-51971473712304356972012-02-13T23:42:11.147-08:002012-02-13T23:42:11.147-08:00Jonathan, very Arthur C. Clarke of you but the Tib...Jonathan, very Arthur C. Clarke of you but the Tibetan monks are unfortunately busy with more than computer outputs at the moment. But more seriously - your observation (the apparent incompatibility of QM and relativity) could be questioned as follows: why does inconsistency imply epistemological segregation? In fact doesn't Goedel say that an inconsistent system is what you should expect if it's complete? And why aren't the simulators smart enough to hide such an inconsistency, if they care at all; why isn't it something more basic, like a breakdown in experience? Eventually I got to the point where the simulation argument was more of a word game, but I think really the problem is not that we can't ascribe motives to the simulators, but rather no one rigorously defines what a simulation is. (Whether people agree, and the remaining question(s) are intersting, is another matter.)Michael Catonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01017910055699348111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3269306468607044272.post-50307245468753424432012-02-13T22:09:59.308-08:002012-02-13T22:09:59.308-08:00i have argued that the incompatibility of general ...i have argued that the incompatibility of general relativity and qm is evidence that we are living in a simulation. this is exactly what we might expect to see if the simulators are taking short cuts. for example in video games different objects frequently have incompatible physics models. so there you go: direct evidence that we are living in a simulation. now we have discovered the Truth. oh crap, the stars are going out....Jonathan Colvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09974322979251224447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3269306468607044272.post-45636425768555982992011-07-05T06:54:55.123-07:002011-07-05T06:54:55.123-07:00I think we both agree that the motivation to creat...I think we both agree that the motivation to create an entire world simulation perfectly is silly. <br /><br />Your original question about creating a TEST (an experiment to falsify the hypothesis that world is a simulation) is still unanswered. <br /><br />I think that to avoid adolescent "the aliens are laser-proof so your lasers don't work" arguments, you must assume no 'supernatural powers' on the part of the overlords. <br /><br />They can't read minds (but they could be very intuitive and perceptive.)<br /><br />They can't time travel and dick with causality (but they could have much faster reaction time than a human.)<br /><br />I think you have to start your experiment assuming no gods, else you have to prove that the devil didn't hide dinosaur bones. We know that following that path pitches the scientific method under a truck brimming with bullshit.<br /><br />I think that you can use certain test results to make educated assumptions about potential overlord motivations. e.g. Assuming that mind-reading overlords defeat the test also implies that the simulation is not intended to interrogate us. A test that determines that the simulation would be net endothermic implies that we're not being used as batteries.<br /><br />Now, the even cleverer alien overlords might have put us into a simulation to see how creatures figure out if they're in a simulation because they themselves are looking for better tests to determine if they are in a simulation...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3269306468607044272.post-37998346270958156212011-06-30T20:13:38.681-07:002011-06-30T20:13:38.681-07:00You bring up exactly the two questions here that s...You bring up exactly the two questions here that should make us ask about the relevance of this whole thought experiment, and that's exactly what I'm trying to demonstrate by reversing it. The first point (which you've made previously) is: why would an entity capable of doing things like this CARE? Any hand-waving explanation we can come up with also begs the question of why they wouldn't just wipe us out; incidentally, also the silliest plot hole in the Matrix (batteries? Come on. Algae wouldn't be better? Or if you need vertebrates for some reason, then whales or brachiosaurs?) Second is the question of wrecking all epistemology - whether their superpower is putting people in a fantasy world or just destroying all possible cause-effect expectations with magic technology, the effect is the same - the nature of the world and oneself in it is unknowable, except for the fact of one's existence. <br /><br />To me this is a reductio ad absurdum of the whole enterprise. It's not a question of whether we manufacture our experience (we absolutely do, by for example knitting together visual and tactile input as coming from a single object but excluding others from lack of input instrument or just poor pattern recognition). What people consistently seem to be interested in is whether there are elves changing the set pieces to trick us, and that goes back to why they would care.Michael Catonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01017910055699348111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3269306468607044272.post-26304272637352686782011-06-29T06:10:15.135-07:002011-06-29T06:10:15.135-07:00Assuming mind-reading, time-stopping alien overlor...Assuming mind-reading, time-stopping alien overlords with inscrutable reasons for creating an elaborate simulation isn't too different from believing in that a deity put humanity on the earth to test our moral fortitude, is it?<br /><br />Having an adversary with the ability to rejigger any experimental outcome to conform with expectations pretty much much scuttles the scientific approach to gaining knowledge. <br /><br />Also, unless you're central to the simulation, another human conceit, what's to keep the overlords from just blipping you out of reality if you start learning too much? "Did you see this blog post? Bloop! It's deleted and so is the blogger."<br /><br />I think the better question to ask is why would an overlord bother with a simulation? <br />If they're mind-readers, they don't need it to gain information from us. <br />Conquerors with such abilities would really be taking the slowest route to defeating humanity. <br />Scientists studying our behavior would be doing it in a experimental setting with way too many uncontrolled variables.<br />If they're sadistic thrill-seekers messing with us for their own entertainment, we're just plain screwed.<br /><br />Of course the real clever aliens overlord invaders would just put some silly special effects into the real world and watch the humans commit mass-suicide to 'escape the simulation.' "Hey, Flizz-Nar, look: free planet."dbonfittohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08787420987976232701noreply@blogger.com